Basically, someone (member 815C) asked about Freddie Green and whether he was close mic'd on the Sinatra at the Sands album. Was he really that loud? Are you guys playing unplugged in a band? If So how do you mic it?
Another member (Steve DeRosa), pointed out how he had played in a 30's/40's-style big band with a period-correct '47 Gibson L-7 strung up with heavy strings, and beefy action, and how he was able to do it without any amplification. He pointed out some of the hallmarks of Freddie Green-style voicings (only playing the D and G strings, no extra notes/extensions) are key to making it happen.
I chimed in at this point, because although agreed with his suggestions completely, I felt it was important to point out that playing completely acoustic may not be a realistic possibility, even when you've got a period-correct guitar, set up properly. Here are some of my thoughts:
Super Swing (swing Lives) (big Band Arrangement) Sheet Music For Piano, Trombone, Guitar, Trumpet Other (mixed Ensemble)
Steve's certainly right about using the proper voicings, focusing on the D and G strings, and using a loud acoustic archtop with heavier strings. And I do what I can to preserve the natural acoustic balance of 1930's-1940's music. I actually don't play anything except 30's and 40's stuff, so I really aim for a pre-bop feel for everything, rhythmically, harmonically, sonically, etc.That said, unless I'm playing in a really well designed acoustic space, I need a little help. Plus, not everyone has sidemen with similarly period correct gear, and as Michael at www.FreddieGreen.org has written, the sonic properties of amplified bass and modern cymbals and drum heads are just not the same as old ones. Almost all of my gigs involve bass players with gut strings, vintage drum sets and cymbals with calf or at least calf-substitute heads - and it's a whole different thing. You might not be so lucky. And even if you are, you might still appreciate a little boost.
Slightly off-topic here, but I'm wondering if you could tell me a little more about drums and bass from that era. Were the basses all strung with gut strings back then? Was amplified bass even a thing back then? Calf or calf substitute heads? Where would one obtain those? The cymbals is the primary thing to my ears that makes the drums from those swing era recordings sound so much different from a modern kit. Are there modern offerings that can get that sound?
Bass was not amplified at all until the 1950's and the birth of the solid body electric bass, but in jazz, not until a bit later than that. Gut strings were standard until about the 50's - although technically some gut strings actually gut core, with metal wrap, but those are still gut for the purposes of what we're talking about. The switch to metal allowed much longer sustain, and more legato walking jazz bass sound. Then, once the upright bass began to be amplified, it really allowed players to play as lightly, and legato as possible, and that completely changed the time feel and sound. I had a recording engineer friend tell me about the time he tired to mic the upright bass of a guy who always played with an amp, and even in studio, with decent isolation, he couldn't get a useable acoustic sound from him, and just had to use his pickup.As for drums, the modern mylar head has more frequency spread and a lot more volume than a calf head. Calf-style heads, stuff like Remo Fiberskyn, Renaissance, Skyntone, etc., or Aquarian's Vintage line, are intended to get more of the tone of old calf heads. Also, old drums weren't meant to be as loud as modern ones - think about it: a modern tama or whatever is designed to stand up to marshall stacks and fender twins, and drums are still the last thing to get mic'ed up. Cymbals, likewise have gotten way wider and heavier as volume needs increased. In the 30's 10-12 hi hats were standard, now 13-15 are standard. What we now call a splash cymbal (10-13) was used for cymbal crashes, and the modern crash cymbal (14-18) was what people used for a ride cymbal. Sure there are also modern alloys, but even among the vintage-style cymbals, there's not one maker producing a cymbal as lightweight as the set of 11 Zildjians that came with my 1941 Leedy Drum Set.Just like with guitars, there are modern people making things that are similar to vintage ones, but just like with guitars, it's not quite exactly the same thing.A modern Loar LH-700 is no 1928 Gibson L-5, but in many ways its a better substitute than a Benedetto-styled luthier built guitar. Those calf-substitute heads aren't the same as calf, but it's definitely closer than mylar.But again, even if you manage to assemble a period correct collection of instruments, you'd still need a reasonably acoustically responsive space. And people playing them with the sensitivity to balance to an acoustic piano. And you'd need an audience that was WAY quieter than people now. Back then, ambient noise just wasn't as intense as it is now, and people were far quieter in public. Sure, they did have a Mic for the singer in late 30's-40's, and occasionally some soloists, but you have to imagine that Charlie Christian was revolutionarily loud by having a barely 15-watt, open backed cab placed on a stool, and without being completely fuzzed out.Proper playing technique is important, and the voicings and time-feel are all inherently related to playing what is still an acoustic instrument. But, even when trying to preserve the style as much as possible, the practical realities of the modern world mean that throwing a clip-on mic into something like an AER is a very valuable possibility.Finally, one of my heroes, a guy named John Reynolds (an amazing amalgam of pre-war, pre-electric banjo guitar jazz, who's been doing only that since the 60's) took some lessons with George M. Smith, and also talked quite a bit with Roc Hillman who played guitar for Tommy Dorsey in the 30's and 40's, and both said the same thing: they were ALWAYS desperate for more volume, even then.
Hire Triad Jazz Guitar Trio
Finally, I felt compelled to delve into a history of comparative rhythm guitar styles, because I sometimes chafe at the use of Freddie Green as the stand in for ALL of Swing-Era Rhythm Guitar. So here's that:
One last thing....Freddie Green is the Kleenex or Xerox of rhythm guitar, in that he's become synonymous with four-to-the-bar swing-style comping. However, it should be noted that he was not the only practitioner, and that the most distinctive version of his playing which came through starting in the 50's was not exactly what was done in the 30's.Listening to people like John Trueheart with Chick Webb in 1934, or Danny Barker, that they were playing 4 and 5 note chords, more like gypsy jazz style players still do. Charlie Christian can be heard playing similar voicings as well, even as late as 1941. It was probably George Van Eps (who played with Goodman '34-'35) who started to spread the three note voicings on the E D and G strings we know as Freddie Green-style. He taught Allan Reuss (who played with Goodman '35-'38) who perhaps perfected the style.There is a story in Steve Jordan's book about Freddie taking a lesson from Allan when he came to New York in 1937 and joined Basie's band. The Green family doesn't think that happened. Either way, I think it's probably fair to say that Reuss's Van Eps-derived voicings may have been an influence, whether there was a formal lesson or not. Given the number of personnel overlaps between Goodman and Basie members in various jams, recording sessions, etc., it seems unlikely there would not have been some interaction.But, while Allan Reuss was keeping time and holding together a band featuring the thunder god Gene Krupa (whose time was not exactly metronomic), Green was playing with Jo Jones, whose much lighter, flowing style was one of the things that made bebop possible. Between Basie, Green, Jones and bass player Walter Page, they developed a less chunky, less thumpy, more flowing sound.With the New Testament Basie era started in 1952, Green continued to evolve that flowing style with a what was basically a straight-ahead jazz feeling rhythm section, rather than the dance-band style one from the 30's-40's. He continued to smooth out the pulse, and start walking his voicings more like a tenor line to the bass line, and pairing down to just one or two notes.As great as Freddie was, it isn't necessarily the only way to do it, and it can sometimes be the wrong feel for the music. The video I posted is of a whole evening of Chick Webb tunes we had transcribed from scratch, and it's probably the first time 80 years all but about 3 or 4 of those arrangements have been played by a live band. I kept trying to throw in a more flowing, Green-style, walking rhythm feel,
Steve's certainly right about using the proper voicings, focusing on the D and G strings, and using a loud acoustic archtop with heavier strings. And I do what I can to preserve the natural acoustic balance of 1930's-1940's music. I actually don't play anything except 30's and 40's stuff, so I really aim for a pre-bop feel for everything, rhythmically, harmonically, sonically, etc.That said, unless I'm playing in a really well designed acoustic space, I need a little help. Plus, not everyone has sidemen with similarly period correct gear, and as Michael at www.FreddieGreen.org has written, the sonic properties of amplified bass and modern cymbals and drum heads are just not the same as old ones. Almost all of my gigs involve bass players with gut strings, vintage drum sets and cymbals with calf or at least calf-substitute heads - and it's a whole different thing. You might not be so lucky. And even if you are, you might still appreciate a little boost.
Slightly off-topic here, but I'm wondering if you could tell me a little more about drums and bass from that era. Were the basses all strung with gut strings back then? Was amplified bass even a thing back then? Calf or calf substitute heads? Where would one obtain those? The cymbals is the primary thing to my ears that makes the drums from those swing era recordings sound so much different from a modern kit. Are there modern offerings that can get that sound?
Bass was not amplified at all until the 1950's and the birth of the solid body electric bass, but in jazz, not until a bit later than that. Gut strings were standard until about the 50's - although technically some gut strings actually gut core, with metal wrap, but those are still gut for the purposes of what we're talking about. The switch to metal allowed much longer sustain, and more legato walking jazz bass sound. Then, once the upright bass began to be amplified, it really allowed players to play as lightly, and legato as possible, and that completely changed the time feel and sound. I had a recording engineer friend tell me about the time he tired to mic the upright bass of a guy who always played with an amp, and even in studio, with decent isolation, he couldn't get a useable acoustic sound from him, and just had to use his pickup.As for drums, the modern mylar head has more frequency spread and a lot more volume than a calf head. Calf-style heads, stuff like Remo Fiberskyn, Renaissance, Skyntone, etc., or Aquarian's Vintage line, are intended to get more of the tone of old calf heads. Also, old drums weren't meant to be as loud as modern ones - think about it: a modern tama or whatever is designed to stand up to marshall stacks and fender twins, and drums are still the last thing to get mic'ed up. Cymbals, likewise have gotten way wider and heavier as volume needs increased. In the 30's 10-12 hi hats were standard, now 13-15 are standard. What we now call a splash cymbal (10-13) was used for cymbal crashes, and the modern crash cymbal (14-18) was what people used for a ride cymbal. Sure there are also modern alloys, but even among the vintage-style cymbals, there's not one maker producing a cymbal as lightweight as the set of 11 Zildjians that came with my 1941 Leedy Drum Set.Just like with guitars, there are modern people making things that are similar to vintage ones, but just like with guitars, it's not quite exactly the same thing.A modern Loar LH-700 is no 1928 Gibson L-5, but in many ways its a better substitute than a Benedetto-styled luthier built guitar. Those calf-substitute heads aren't the same as calf, but it's definitely closer than mylar.But again, even if you manage to assemble a period correct collection of instruments, you'd still need a reasonably acoustically responsive space. And people playing them with the sensitivity to balance to an acoustic piano. And you'd need an audience that was WAY quieter than people now. Back then, ambient noise just wasn't as intense as it is now, and people were far quieter in public. Sure, they did have a Mic for the singer in late 30's-40's, and occasionally some soloists, but you have to imagine that Charlie Christian was revolutionarily loud by having a barely 15-watt, open backed cab placed on a stool, and without being completely fuzzed out.Proper playing technique is important, and the voicings and time-feel are all inherently related to playing what is still an acoustic instrument. But, even when trying to preserve the style as much as possible, the practical realities of the modern world mean that throwing a clip-on mic into something like an AER is a very valuable possibility.Finally, one of my heroes, a guy named John Reynolds (an amazing amalgam of pre-war, pre-electric banjo guitar jazz, who's been doing only that since the 60's) took some lessons with George M. Smith, and also talked quite a bit with Roc Hillman who played guitar for Tommy Dorsey in the 30's and 40's, and both said the same thing: they were ALWAYS desperate for more volume, even then.
Hire Triad Jazz Guitar Trio
Finally, I felt compelled to delve into a history of comparative rhythm guitar styles, because I sometimes chafe at the use of Freddie Green as the stand in for ALL of Swing-Era Rhythm Guitar. So here's that:
One last thing....Freddie Green is the Kleenex or Xerox of rhythm guitar, in that he's become synonymous with four-to-the-bar swing-style comping. However, it should be noted that he was not the only practitioner, and that the most distinctive version of his playing which came through starting in the 50's was not exactly what was done in the 30's.Listening to people like John Trueheart with Chick Webb in 1934, or Danny Barker, that they were playing 4 and 5 note chords, more like gypsy jazz style players still do. Charlie Christian can be heard playing similar voicings as well, even as late as 1941. It was probably George Van Eps (who played with Goodman '34-'35) who started to spread the three note voicings on the E D and G strings we know as Freddie Green-style. He taught Allan Reuss (who played with Goodman '35-'38) who perhaps perfected the style.There is a story in Steve Jordan's book about Freddie taking a lesson from Allan when he came to New York in 1937 and joined Basie's band. The Green family doesn't think that happened. Either way, I think it's probably fair to say that Reuss's Van Eps-derived voicings may have been an influence, whether there was a formal lesson or not. Given the number of personnel overlaps between Goodman and Basie members in various jams, recording sessions, etc., it seems unlikely there would not have been some interaction.But, while Allan Reuss was keeping time and holding together a band featuring the thunder god Gene Krupa (whose time was not exactly metronomic), Green was playing with Jo Jones, whose much lighter, flowing style was one of the things that made bebop possible. Between Basie, Green, Jones and bass player Walter Page, they developed a less chunky, less thumpy, more flowing sound.With the New Testament Basie era started in 1952, Green continued to evolve that flowing style with a what was basically a straight-ahead jazz feeling rhythm section, rather than the dance-band style one from the 30's-40's. He continued to smooth out the pulse, and start walking his voicings more like a tenor line to the bass line, and pairing down to just one or two notes.As great as Freddie was, it isn't necessarily the only way to do it, and it can sometimes be the wrong feel for the music. The video I posted is of a whole evening of Chick Webb tunes we had transcribed from scratch, and it's probably the first time 80 years all but about 3 or 4 of those arrangements have been played by a live band. I kept trying to throw in a more flowing, Green-style, walking rhythm feel,
Steve's certainly right about using the proper voicings, focusing on the D and G strings, and using a loud acoustic archtop with heavier strings. And I do what I can to preserve the natural acoustic balance of 1930's-1940's music. I actually don't play anything except 30's and 40's stuff, so I really aim for a pre-bop feel for everything, rhythmically, harmonically, sonically, etc.That said, unless I'm playing in a really well designed acoustic space, I need a little help. Plus, not everyone has sidemen with similarly period correct gear, and as Michael at www.FreddieGreen.org has written, the sonic properties of amplified bass and modern cymbals and drum heads are just not the same as old ones. Almost all of my gigs involve bass players with gut strings, vintage drum sets and cymbals with calf or at least calf-substitute heads - and it's a whole different thing. You might not be so lucky. And even if you are, you might still appreciate a little boost.
Slightly off-topic here, but I'm wondering if you could tell me a little more about drums and bass from that era. Were the basses all strung with gut strings back then? Was amplified bass even a thing back then? Calf or calf substitute heads? Where would one obtain those? The cymbals is the primary thing to my ears that makes the drums from those swing era recordings sound so much different from a modern kit. Are there modern offerings that can get that sound?
Bass was not amplified at all until the 1950's and the birth of the solid body electric bass, but in jazz, not until a bit later than that. Gut strings were standard until about the 50's - although technically some gut strings actually gut core, with metal wrap, but those are still gut for the purposes of what we're talking about. The switch to metal allowed much longer sustain, and more legato walking jazz bass sound. Then, once the upright bass began to be amplified, it really allowed players to play as lightly, and legato as possible, and that completely changed the time feel and sound. I had a recording engineer friend tell me about the time he tired to mic the upright bass of a guy who always played with an amp, and even in studio, with decent isolation, he couldn't get a useable acoustic sound from him, and just had to use his pickup.As for drums, the modern mylar head has more frequency spread and a lot more volume than a calf head. Calf-style heads, stuff like Remo Fiberskyn, Renaissance, Skyntone, etc., or Aquarian's Vintage line, are intended to get more of the tone of old calf heads. Also, old drums weren't meant to be as loud as modern ones - think about it: a modern tama or whatever is designed to stand up to marshall stacks and fender twins, and drums are still the last thing to get mic'ed up. Cymbals, likewise have gotten way wider and heavier as volume needs increased. In the 30's 10-12 hi hats were standard, now 13-15 are standard. What we now call a splash cymbal (10-13) was used for cymbal crashes, and the modern crash cymbal (14-18) was what people used for a ride cymbal. Sure there are also modern alloys, but even among the vintage-style cymbals, there's not one maker producing a cymbal as lightweight as the set of 11 Zildjians that came with my 1941 Leedy Drum Set.Just like with guitars, there are modern people making things that are similar to vintage ones, but just like with guitars, it's not quite exactly the same thing.A modern Loar LH-700 is no 1928 Gibson L-5, but in many ways its a better substitute than a Benedetto-styled luthier built guitar. Those calf-substitute heads aren't the same as calf, but it's definitely closer than mylar.But again, even if you manage to assemble a period correct collection of instruments, you'd still need a reasonably acoustically responsive space. And people playing them with the sensitivity to balance to an acoustic piano. And you'd need an audience that was WAY quieter than people now. Back then, ambient noise just wasn't as intense as it is now, and people were far quieter in public. Sure, they did have a Mic for the singer in late 30's-40's, and occasionally some soloists, but you have to imagine that Charlie Christian was revolutionarily loud by having a barely 15-watt, open backed cab placed on a stool, and without being completely fuzzed out.Proper playing technique is important, and the voicings and time-feel are all inherently related to playing what is still an acoustic instrument. But, even when trying to preserve the style as much as possible, the practical realities of the modern world mean that throwing a clip-on mic into something like an AER is a very valuable possibility.Finally, one of my heroes, a guy named John Reynolds (an amazing amalgam of pre-war, pre-electric banjo guitar jazz, who's been doing only that since the 60's) took some lessons with George M. Smith, and also talked quite a bit with Roc Hillman who played guitar for Tommy Dorsey in the 30's and 40's, and both said the same thing: they were ALWAYS desperate for more volume, even then.
Hire Triad Jazz Guitar Trio
Finally, I felt compelled to delve into a history of comparative rhythm guitar styles, because I sometimes chafe at the use of Freddie Green as the stand in for ALL of Swing-Era Rhythm Guitar. So here's that:
One last thing....Freddie Green is the Kleenex or Xerox of rhythm guitar, in that he's become synonymous with four-to-the-bar swing-style comping. However, it should be noted that he was not the only practitioner, and that the most distinctive version of his playing which came through starting in the 50's was not exactly what was done in the 30's.Listening to people like John Trueheart with Chick Webb in 1934, or Danny Barker, that they were playing 4 and 5 note chords, more like gypsy jazz style players still do. Charlie Christian can be heard playing similar voicings as well, even as late as 1941. It was probably George Van Eps (who played with Goodman '34-'35) who started to spread the three note voicings on the E D and G strings we know as Freddie Green-style. He taught Allan Reuss (who played with Goodman '35-'38) who perhaps perfected the style.There is a story in Steve Jordan's book about Freddie taking a lesson from Allan when he came to New York in 1937 and joined Basie's band. The Green family doesn't think that happened. Either way, I think it's probably fair to say that Reuss's Van Eps-derived voicings may have been an influence, whether there was a formal lesson or not. Given the number of personnel overlaps between Goodman and Basie members in various jams, recording sessions, etc., it seems unlikely there would not have been some interaction.But, while Allan Reuss was keeping time and holding together a band featuring the thunder god Gene Krupa (whose time was not exactly metronomic), Green was playing with Jo Jones, whose much lighter, flowing style was one of the things that made bebop possible. Between Basie, Green, Jones and bass player Walter Page, they developed a less chunky, less thumpy, more flowing sound.With the New Testament Basie era started in 1952, Green continued to evolve that flowing style with a what was basically a straight-ahead jazz feeling rhythm section, rather than the dance-band style one from the 30's-40's. He continued to smooth out the pulse, and start walking his voicings more like a tenor line to the bass line, and pairing down to just one or two notes.As great as Freddie was, it isn't necessarily the only way to do it, and it can sometimes be the wrong feel for the music. The video I posted is of a whole evening of Chick Webb tunes we had transcribed from scratch, and it's probably the first time 80 years all but about 3 or 4 of those arrangements have been played by a live band. I kept trying to throw in a more flowing, Green-style, walking rhythm feel,
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